tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7883131984088123932.post3190902518851550351..comments2023-09-30T06:12:39.272-07:00Comments on For the Tennessee Walking Horse: RESEARCH - The Auburn Study: Yes, Pads Are BadFor the Tennessee Walking Horsehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00136282847284092947noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7883131984088123932.post-47040899312878070052011-10-30T00:41:38.349-07:002011-10-30T00:41:38.349-07:00bbudafuko: I do not know where or when you have be...bbudafuko: I do not know where or when you have been in the inspection area. At all sanctioned shows I have been to chains were weighed post show, as is the approved procedure, USDA present or not. There is no weight limit on the pads so a heavier package does not create an unfair advantage and pulling them to weighed is unnecessary.<br /><br />FTTWH: I've been to several shows on the West Coast where I watched soring happen right before my eyes, and in front of the DQP.<br /><br />How is weight NOT an unfair advantage? The logic is that a horse that carries more weight in front will step higher and crouch more. That's what the judges reward. So if I were a person who could not afford the giant heavy tungsten shoes that are being used, or maybe I try to show sound and don't add lead to my horse's stacks after he's been through the DQP and before he goes in the class (yes, I've witnessed this), then why is it okay for everyone else to use them and I not get that advantage? If I were an exhibitor, I'd be outraged that there aren't weight limits in some of the HIO rulebooks. And in that vein, why aren't exhibitors demanding chains be weighed before the class? That also will give someone an unfair advantage if they have chains that are over the weight limit. But then again, when a horse is found sore after a class or chains are too heavy, the HIOs don't strip the horse of the title or discipline the trainer, so it doesn't really matter anyway.<br /><br />bbudafuko: The study does not show problems directly related to horses being padded. The study only shows drastic changes in angle can be detrimental. Once Again, I hate to bring other breeds into it, but does this apply to jumping horses, rodeo horses, race horses? All of these risk serious injury to the horse.<br /><br />FTTWH: AGAIN, you didn't answer the question. The majority of other breeds are conditioned before shown for months, riding for hours every day, and they are not purposely injured to force them to move certain ways. This is unlike BL horses that are ridden up and down an aisle or around an arena for a few minutes so they can figure out how much more juice to use or if the horse "needs" more pain to force the gait. There is no complex training involved in showing TWHs, only complex shoeing and chemistry to force the horse to move the way they want.<br /><br />bbudafuko: I mainly ride flat shod horses but have ridden a few padded horses owned by other people. I came to your site because I was interested in the literature published on the effects of pads. Your snide comments to the facts make it clear to me that alternate view points and discussion are not welcome. I apologize for disrupting your propaganda. I will not post again.<br /><br />FTTWH: I'm not spreading propaganda--I'm pointing out the truths. This blog only propaganda to those who are all for stacking and/or soring. If you have ridden a few BL horses, then you probably realize the torture they go through just to win a blue ribbon. I've been involved in this industry for a very long time and used to be involved with sore horse trainers. I have seen what they do to these horses to win. It's sick and twisted and needs to stop, not just for the horse's sake, but so that we can see America actually uphold one of the laws they have enacted to stop animal abuse. And if continuing to expose the industry and point out the truths is what needs to be done to stop it, then I will.For the Tennessee Walking Horsehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00136282847284092947noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7883131984088123932.post-2772776573654180912011-10-30T00:41:33.230-07:002011-10-30T00:41:33.230-07:00bbudafuko: I hesitate to bring other breed's p...bbudafuko: I hesitate to bring other breed's problems into a discussion, as I have seen your response and agree that injustice in other breeds is not an excuse, however I will bite. Why do you think drug rules, particularly NSAIDs, were enacted? They were being overused in masking aliments so horses could show in less than the condition you described. Trainers of breeds falling under drug regulations have not stopped using these drugs. They know how far out the drugs can be administered and do it then. I doubt any walking horses are shown within a week after being shod from barefoot to padded, the period of time the study showed inflammation.<br /><br />FTTWH: You didn't answer the question: WHY RISK DAMAGING THE HORSE?<br /><br />And yes, the drug rules were enacted to stop those things, and those rules have actually been followed. There didn't need to be a federal law to stop what's going on, and drug use is not nearly as rampant in other breeds as soring is in the TWH breed. Plus, when a horse is found drugged, the trainer is diciplined, given a hefty fine, the horse stripped of the title, and in some instances the horse is not allowed to be shown again. They actually take violations of their rules seriously, unlike the TWH industry that merely gives a slap on the hand and allows the trainer to show again two weeks later.<br /><br />bbudafuko: My opinion and bias is no different than the one you expressed while pushing your agenda to remove pads. This study showed a horse gaiting sound wearing pads. Unsoundness was the result of drastic increase or decrease in angle. If tendons were equally swollen in both cases, and swollen tendons were the sole cause of the stumbling and fatigue, why was the horse gaiting better on a negative angle?<br /><br />FTTWH: I am pushing for the ending of soring, and since 90% of all horses that were found sore in 2008, 2009 and 2010 were stacked horses, then I believe stacks should be eliminated. There is no logical reason to stack a horse other than personal gain. The horse doesn't need to be stacked to be a quality animal.<br /><br />Angles should not come into play when it comes to a horse's natural way of going. When a horse is trimmed and shod correct to its conformation and not according to the shoe size the owner/trainer/exhibitor wants, then the horse will gait sound. The gait should never be forced. To me, there is nothing sound about forcing the gait through shoeing methods.For the Tennessee Walking Horsehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00136282847284092947noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7883131984088123932.post-24612255253455882002011-10-29T18:14:50.775-07:002011-10-29T18:14:50.775-07:00FTTWH: Short-term inflammation can still lead to t...FTTWH: Short-term inflammation can still lead to tendonitis in the long run. My question is why risk tendonitis at all just for a show ring "look"? Why risk damaging the horse? Grand Prix horses, dressage horses, endurance horses--they don't compete on the top levels unless their horses are guaranteed fit--they are not ridden if they even show the slightest signs of issues. Why is this so different in the TWH world?<br /><br />bbudafuko: I hesitate to bring other breed's problems into a discussion, as I have seen your response and agree that injustice in other breeds is not an excuse, however I will bite. Why do you think drug rules, particularly NSAIDs, were enacted? They were being overused in masking aliments so horses could show in less than the condition you described. Trainers of breeds falling under drug regulations have not stopped using these drugs. They know how far out the drugs can be administered and do it then. I doubt any walking horses are shown within a week after being shod from barefoot to padded, the period of time the study showed inflammation.<br /><br />FTTWH: Of course you don't think that was the reason because it goes against wanting the horse to be on pads. Plus, the horse should not gait "more soundly," he should gait completely sound and without gimmicks or gadgets, which pads are. The gait should be natural, not forced through fancy shoeing or pads.<br /><br />bbudafuko: My opinion and bias is no different than the one you expressed while pushing your agenda to remove pads. This study showed a horse gaiting sound wearing pads. Unsoundness was the result of drastic increase or decrease in angle. If tendons were equally swollen in both cases, and swollen tendons were the sole cause of the stumbling and fatigue, why was the horse gaiting better on a negative angle?<br /><br />FTTWH: I have never, ever seen a DQP weigh chains after a class, or even before a class, when they should be weighed. A horse shouldn't even be allowed in a class until the chains or shoes are weighed so it won't have an unfair advantage in the class. However, I have also only been to shows where the USDA wasn't present, and the DQPs were obviously letting sore horses in and trainers were soring their horses before the class right in front of the DQP. Perhaps they weigh chains when the USDA is present, but I've never seen it.<br /><br />bbudafuko: I do not know where or when you have been in the inspection area. At all sanctioned shows I have been to chains were weighed post show, as is the approved procedure, USDA present or not. There is no weight limit on the pads so a heavier package does not create an unfair advantage and pulling them to weighed is unnecessary.<br /><br />FTTWH: Abnormal inflammation, such as inflammation in the tendons, for whatever reason or time period is potentially harmful. Again, why risk harming the horse just to win a ribbon? But I think we all know the answer to that question.<br /><br />The whole point is that the study shows problems when the horse is on stacks, no matter how minor. These problems are directly related to being on stacks, not due to the amount of work the horse does or what the angles are. Overall, this is evidence that stacks can be bad for the horses, and IMHO, there is no logical reason to risk seriously harming a horse just for the sake of a blue ribbon.<br /><br />bbudafuko: The study does not show problems directly related to horses being padded. The study only shows drastic changes in angle can be detrimental. Once Again, I hate to bring other breeds into it, but does this apply to jumping horses, rodeo horses, race horses? All of these risk serious injury to the horse.<br /><br />I mainly ride flat shod horses but have ridden a few padded horses owned by other people. I came to your site because I was interested in the literature published on the effects of pads. Your snide comments to the facts make it clear to me that alternate view points and discussion are not welcome. I apologize for disrupting your propaganda. I will not post again.bbudafukohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12828000382136253647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7883131984088123932.post-40025069606609494542011-10-29T16:25:24.971-07:002011-10-29T16:25:24.971-07:00bbudafuko: The study showed a rise in temperature ...bbudafuko: The study showed a rise in temperature in the flexor tendons when the horse (#22, later it says #20 but I believe this is a typo) is shod from barefoot to padded. The horse (#23) which had been on a package for for an unstated amount of time prior to the study showed normal readings. It was when 8 degrees of wedges were added to the packages of both horses that both showed signs of inflammation. Similarly, when 12 degrees of wedges were removed from the packages, both horses showed inflammation. But, the study states, "Inflammation subsides about one week after the heels are raised or lowered 8 and 12 degrees respectively." This shows that change causes short-term inflammation. Based on this information, your suggested regimen would result in more damage because of constant change. <br /><br />FTTWH: Short-term inflammation can still lead to tendonitis in the long run. My question is why risk tendonitis at all just for a show ring "look"? Why risk damaging the horse? Grand Prix horses, dressage horses, endurance horses--they don't compete on the top levels unless their horses are guaranteed fit--they are not ridden if they even show the slightest signs of issues. Why is this so different in the TWH world?<br /><br />bbudafuko: I don't think swollen tendons were the reason for this. If it were, why did they gait more soundly on a negative angle even though this too caused swollen tendons?<br /><br />FTTWH: Of course you don't think that was the reason because it goes against wanting the horse to be on pads. Plus, the horse should not gait "more soundly," he should gait completely sound and without gimmicks or gadgets, which pads are. The gait should be natural, not forced through fancy shoeing or pads.<br /><br />bbudafuko: DQPs most definitely weigh chains. When the winners (or top 3) go back through inspection, the chains are removed in the inspection area, inspected, and weighed by the DQP. Tickets are written if the chain is over weight, even if only by 0.1 oz. No, not every chain is weighed and I suppose if you plan on not being near the top, you could get away with a slightly larger chain (excessively large chains would probably draw attention and inspection). One interesting thing I noticed with the study is they did not test (or at least did not publish) the effects of 8 oz chains on horses that were not chemically irritated or previously scarred. They showed 10 oz. chains can cause lesions and up to 6 oz chains do not. But, the only mention of an 8 oz chain is on previously scarred horses.<br /><br />FTTWH: I have never, ever seen a DQP weigh chains after a class, or even before a class, when they should be weighed. A horse shouldn't even be allowed in a class until the chains or shoes are weighed so it won't have an unfair advantage in the class. However, I have also only been to shows where the USDA wasn't present, and the DQPs were obviously letting sore horses in and trainers were soring their horses before the class right in front of the DQP. Perhaps they weigh chains when the USDA is present, but I've never seen it.<br /><br />bbudafuko: This study showed that drastic changes in angle caused short-term inflammation. I see no evidence from this study, that after an adjustment period, pads harm the horse.<br /><br />FTTWH: Abnormal inflammation, such as inflammation in the tendons, for whatever reason or time period is potentially harmful. Again, why risk harming the horse just to win a ribbon? But I think we all know the answer to that question.<br /><br />The whole point is that the study shows problems when the horse is on stacks, no matter how minor. These problems are directly related to being on stacks, not due to the amount of work the horse does or what the angles are. Overall, this is evidence that stacks can be bad for the horses, and IMHO, there is no logical reason to risk seriously harming a horse just for the sake of a blue ribbon.For the Tennessee Walking Horsehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00136282847284092947noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7883131984088123932.post-84645788335230964032011-10-29T14:02:44.019-07:002011-10-29T14:02:44.019-07:00Thank you for the link. I have heard it cited in ...Thank you for the link. I have heard it cited in arguments both for and against pads, but I had not read it until now. However, after reading it, I do not draw the same conclusions you did.<br /><br />You state:<br /><i>If anything, this part shows that pads ARE bad for the horse. When raising the heel, it caused swelling in the flexor tendons ... If anything, this should show us that horses should be off pads when he’s not being shown, and this means off pads after each show, to prevent the horse from getting tendonitis in the long run...</i><br /><br />The study showed a rise in temperature in the flexor tendons when the horse (#22, later it says #20 but I believe this is a typo) is shod from barefoot to padded. The horse (#23) which had been on a package for for an unstated amount of time prior to the study showed normal readings. It was when 8 degrees of wedges were added to the packages of both horses that both showed signs of inflammation. Similarly, when 12 degrees of wedges were removed from the packages, both horses showed inflammation. But, the study states, "Inflammation subsides about one week after the heels are raised or lowered 8 and 12 degrees respectively." This shows that change causes short-term inflammation. Based on this information, your suggested regimen would result in more damage because of constant change. <br /><br />You state:<br /><i>Perhaps [the stumbling and faster fatigue was] because the tendons were swollen?</i><br /><br />I don't think swollen tendons were the reason for this. If it were, why did they gait more soundly on a negative angle even though this too caused swollen tendons?<br /><br />On chains, you state:<br /><i>Since this study, there is a rule that only chains up to 6 ozs are allowed in the ring, but I certainly don't see DQPs weighing chains when horses are being inspected.</i><br /><br />DQPs most definitely weigh chains. When the winners (or top 3) go back through inspection, the chains are removed in the inspection area, inspected, and weighed by the DQP. Tickets are written if the chain is over weight, even if only by 0.1 oz. No, not every chain is weighed and I suppose if you plan on not being near the top, you could get away with a slightly larger chain (excessively large chains would probably draw attention and inspection). One interesting thing I noticed with the study is they did not test (or at least did not publish) the effects of 8 oz chains on horses that were not chemically irritated or previously scarred. They showed 10 oz. chains can cause lesions and up to 6 oz chains do not. But, the only mention of an 8 oz chain is on previously scarred horses.<br /><br />You state:<br /><i>Auburn Study has a lot of evidence that pads are not good for the TWH.</i><br /><br />This study showed that drastic changes in angle caused short-term inflammation. I see no evidence from this study, that after an adjustment period, pads harm the horse.<br /><br />You state:<br /><i>I don't think the industry can hinge their hopes that pads are okay by this study.</i><br /><br />I don't think pads can be vilified based on this study either.bbudafukohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12828000382136253647noreply@blogger.com